We had some friends over for lunch today, and I am coming off the high of a really nice conversation (yes, nice) about how Christians are making some dangerous statements about what they believe God is doing when bad things happen. I talked a little bit about this after the Wildfire in Colorado Springs, simply stating that “God is not an asshole.”
So now, here we are, a few weeks later, and it is happening again. The shooting in Aurora is absolutely awful. It was an attack on our humanity, and to think that so many peoples’ lives were forever changed for simply going to a movie…there just are not words for that. My heart aches whenever I think about what it must have been like to experience something so horrifying, and no matter how much time I spend trying to wrap my mind around it, I just can not understand it.
I stayed off Twitter on Friday, anticipating that people would say things that would ultimately cause even more heartache to a situation that was already ugly and full of sadness. Now, having taken a few days, I have to say, we are doing it wrong.
Here is where I have landed: our response to tragedy is to try to find an answer. We look to God for explanations because we can not fathom how something so shocking and awful can happen. That is exactly what we should do. What we shouldn’t do, is speak. Yes. Speak. When we try to put words in God’s mouth, it does damage. Christians keep hurting people, and nothing makes me cringe more than when careless words manipulate the image of Christ. To say that God is judging people, or trying to teach people, or punishing people, and we, those outside of these events, are somehow free of that punishment/judgement/lesson…it is hurtful/arrogant/wrong. We do not know why these things happen, and I think it is incredibly dangerous to pretend like we know the answers. What we know is that a seriously disturbed individual walked into that movie theater with the intention of killing people. Instead of trying to come up with biblical explanations, we should love on the community of Aurora. We should offer prayer, we should offer our love, and we should mourn and grieve with them.
What you shouldn’t say:
“God will do anything to get our attention”
“God must be trying to tell us something”
“This is the world that God gave us”
“God will not give you anything that you can not handle”
“God is judging us”
“There is a spiritual stronghold over Colorado”
“God is angry with Colorado”
etc. etc. etc.
Maybe, there was a time when saying something like that made someone’s heart feel warm and fuzzy inside, but I kind of doubt it. Here is my advice: just shut up. Our job is to love thy neighbor. That is what we are supposed to do. The commentary isn’t necessary or productive. Let’s all admit that we do not know why these awful/tragic/horrifying things happen, but we know that God can bring comfort and peace, and rest for the weary. He brings light to the dark places; He brings hope to the hopeless; He drags us out of the depths of despair and somehow brings joy. That is the God that I serve, and I believe that is where our hearts should be–with those that hurt instead of standing against them.
God is simply testing those families in Colorado as he tested Job in the Book of Job, Chapter 1:6-12: 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
The Lord and Satan are constantly in battle for the souls of all in God’s creation. Like any good father, the Lord will test us from time to time to demonstrate the strength of our love for him to Satan. That is all that this is. The best we can do is to remind our Christian brethren of this simple truth that is as old as God’s love for us.
This is exactly the kind of thing that I am talking about. Unless you know 100%, without a doubt, that God is “testing” the people of Colorado, why would you in good conscious say something like that? Is it not hurtful to the people in Colorado? The families who lost someone? That they were a simple ‘product’ of God’s “test,” as you call it?
Not to mention, you are applying an Old Testament scripture to a modern day situation. Did Jesus not come to bring life and salvation? Do you not believe that “God so loved the world”…but instead God sent his son, grace freely given, but now we have to be “tested” in order to make sure that we are deserving? Are you saying that when we commit our lives to Christ, God doesn’t believe us, so he throws “tests” our way to make sure we have our allegiances straight? And you say, “like any good father” the Lord will test us to see if our love is strong enough…That is a real interesting thought. God is just sitting up there, looking down on us, saying “Hey, how about we kill some people in a movie theater, still love me? Burn your houses down? Still love me? Let’s just go ahead and take out some children at the highschool…love me now?” Not biblical, not God’s character, PERIOD. And, I will say, my Father never left me on a street corner, abandoned and lost, to prove that I needed him. So I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “Like any good father.”
The fact is, bad shit happens. Yes, sin does have a way of hurting people, and this world is very far from what God had in mind. That is why we NEED him. When things like this happen, when PEOPLE FAIL, we need to be able to turn to him, the God that never fails.
Your logic is hurtful. You don’t know the people involved in this situation, and to call this horrifying event a “test” from God– the “simple truth” as you worded it, without knowing what you are talking about…what does that say to the people who don’t know Jesus? Why follow a God that doesn’t accept us, as flawed as we may be? What about you? What about the other millions of people that never have to endure something like this? Do they not have to be tested?
You should be better acquainted with the Holy book. Jesus himself trusts in the veracity of the Old Testament, and you do not? Are you one of those Christians who picks and chooses what you want from the New Testament too?
Consider this: We could cite many reasons for the Old Testament being God’s Word, but the strongest argument comes from the Lord Jesus himself. As God in human flesh, Jesus speaks with final authority. And his testimony regarding the Old Testament is loud and clear.
Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Matthew 15:6). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18).
When dealing with the people of his day, whether it was with the disciples or religious rulers, Jesus constantly referred to the Old Testament: ‘Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?’ (Matthew 22:31); ‘Yea; and have you never read, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes thou has prepared praise for thyself”?’ (Matthew 21:16, citing Psalm 8:2); and ‘Have you not read what David did?’ (Matthew 12:3). Examples could be multiplied to demonstrate that Jesus was conversant with the Old Testament and its content. He quoted from it often and he trusted it totally.
Throughout the Gospels, we find Jesus confirming many of the accounts in the Old Testament, such as the destruction of Sodom and the death of Lot’s wife (Luke 17:29, 32) the murder of Abel by his brother Cain (Luke 11:51), the calling of Moses (Mark 12:26), and the manna given in the wilderness (John 6:31–51).
The list of examples goes on, and the evidence is clear: Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God’s Word, and his attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust. Many people want to accept Jesus, yet they reject a large portion of the Old Testament. Either Jesus knew what he was talking about, or he didn’t. If a person believes in Jesus Christ, he should be consistent and believe that the Old Testament and its accounts are correct.
Firstly, this is my blog, and I ask that you be respectful if you want to converse here. Secondly, I never questioned if you have or haven’t read the Bible. I recognize that we will interpret things differently, but do not come on here and attack me. I will engage you as long as you converse respectfully with me and my readers.
I never said the Old Testament wasn’t truth or that I pick and choose which parts to accept. I am saying, God sent his son! The way He operated in the Old Testament was not what we saw after Jesus died on the cross.
Again, it is incredibly dangerous for you to presume to know that God is testing Colorado. And, you and I both know, that you do not know that to be fact.
It’s one thing to hear and read claims like this from people who maybe just don’t know any better. Those who have some obtuse view of God and don’t really know him or have never experienced him. But it surprises and upsets me to see it from people who claim to have a close relationship with him.
I almost feel bad that this is the view you have of the God in your life. A relationship of fear and a mean God who brings suffering and tragedy. Who wants a relationship with a God like that? How do you being others to know him with a basis like that?
You don’t get to pick and choose the God you want to have. He is. Read his book. Look at the whole thing, not just those parts that make you feel good about yourself. Even Jesus recognized and had faith in the Old Testament. He knew that God his father worked in ways that mortals could not understand because he is God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, and the Son all in one. Quit trying to impress human characteristics upon a being that you could not possibly comprehend. Also, see my response to your misguided sister on this same blog.
Again. You want to converse here, great, but you will NOT communicate in this way. We can disagree, but it is not necessary to belittle, use words like “misguided” or attack someone’s relationship with Jesus. Remember that you have no idea who you are speaking to–you have not commented on my blog before, and we have no existing relationship. It concerns me that you treat believers this way; makes me seriously concerned about how you engage others on a daily basis.
It pisses me off when people say things like this. The God I grew up believing in, His heart breaks along with ours at every tragedy like these. He is a God of sacrifice and of love. That’s the very core of God. That God doesn’t have some mean streak in him that wants to “teach the world a lesson.” The world is complex and sometimes people do shitty things.
Your God seems to be a creature without a basis in the fact of the Bible. God asks for sacrifice, like Isaac and Abraham. God doesn’t have a mean streak. I didn’t say that. If you had read the Book of Job, you’d understand that God proves the faith of his believers to the Devil who doubts him. Yes, Job’s children were all killed to make that point, but that is God’s will. A human or five hundred human’s lives are nothing compared to his will. There are dozens of examples to prove this in both the New and Old Testament. You cannot understand the will of God. You are merely human. That is what the rest of the later Books of Job are about. Job comes to understand that he is nothing compared to the Lord and that he has no place to question him ever. Neither do you. Accept his will.
Dear Salty:
It’s hard to resist commenting or attempting to explain for others the “why” that people are looking for. I heard one person say this happened because ” the shooter had a 100 round clip and people should not be able to own a 100 round clip.” So think about this, the shooter goes into the theater with a 10 or 20 round clip, fewer people die….. do you start to get it, we can’t control outcomes. To offer explanations to things like this, I think we diminish what Jesus actually did on the cross. Jesus on the cross said, ” It is finished.” He didn’t say, ” I did my part, now it’s up to you.”
If it were “finished” as you say it were in your misinterpretation of The Word, then we would be in Heaven and not here on earth waiting for the Second Coming. Where is your textual support from the Bible for your statements? If you don’t have the Lord’s divine word backing you up, then that is only your opinion.
First of all have you read all of Job or just parts of Job? If you haven’t read Job 38, I suggest you do because that is when God speaks up and asks questions that apply here. We have no idea the purposes of God in every situation and to make a call like that is saying that you know what God knows. It’s easy to point fingers at a situation but if you were the victim you would probably have a different perspective. I’m just saying that we need to be careful to speak on God’s behalf in any situation let alone this situation. God clearly asked Job and his friends who speculated on Job’s different life tragedies these following questions: “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? (Job 38:2 NIV), “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (Job 38:4 NIV, “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!” (Job 40:2 NIV)
I believe that it is our calling to love unconditionally and not make judgement calls on any individual or situation. We are to bring peace and comfort to the hurting.
I am not claiming to know the mind of God, only that there is a pattern with textual evidence to support it. I can say what God has done, thanks to his divine word. God does not call us to love unconditionally. Jesus in the old testament reminds us to hate those, even our brothers and sisters who would stand in the way of our relationship with God. “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)
The best comfort that we can bring to the hurting is the honesty of the Lord’s divine word as it is written in His book. We do fellow mankind no favor by softening the truth of God’s love.
Jesus NEVER tells us to HATE anyone. Please re-read what the scripture you quoted. To hate is less powerful than to love. Jesus clearly teaches us to love our enemies and our neighbors.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48 NIV)
It’s not a matter of “softening” the message, it’s a matter of telling the whole truth.
Also, Ms. Krongard, I have to ask that you respect the Lord’s word as it is written in the Bible. You don’t get to put your personal spin on the Lord’s word. It is written in His book, in His divine words and all of the textual evidence is there for the God that I am writing of.
God sent his son, and his son reaffirmed the words of the Old Testament. He did not abolish it. He did not renounce it.
God tests his creations. It is written in his book, in his words. The best comfort is the Truth of the Lord. Take comfort in that, not in make-believe.
I actually did pick and choose what parts of the bible I wanted to follow. Me, Chris,
I’m mean, pretty stupid and I hardly ever want to do the right thing. I figured I had to start somewhere in the bible. Something simple that I could start with. I picked Mathew 22:36… Someone asked what the greatest commandment is, Jesus said in so many words , love God, love people. Once I get that down I’ll go to the rest of it.
People who pick and choose parts of holy books that they want to follow tend to be dangerous. Did God choose you to be his editor?
Salty, you must be a pretty perfect person. It’s amazing to me that you are so well versed on the scriptures, yet can completely ignore the part where God came for the world, not just the theologians…
You also seem to have missed the part where God commands us to love thy neighbor. Clearly you believe that excludes us…the “misguided.”
And since you seem to believe that God loves “conditionally” I want to remind you of this:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. (John 3:16-21 NIV)
God sent his son to save the world, not condemn the world. Everyone who does evil, hates the light–I think that can be said of what happened in Aurora. A man acted out of the darkness…you however seem to believe he was acting within God’s will? Killing people, shooting innocent children, all as a test? Seems like you are missing God’s character entirely.
Haha. God asked me to do two things… Love God and love people. Since this is the only verse I know I’ll hit you with the end of it. “love the Lord… Love you neighbor… All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments”. So that’s the base of me. If I could lift you up in any way, let me know…
Mrs. Krongard, now you attack me personally because you cannot refute my truths that are Biblically supported. Classic example of a logical fallacy. You try to insult me and pretend to be concerned about me, but all you really seek to do through your illogical and non-faith based posture is lead others away from the truth of my argument. Look in your Bible. Every thing you ever need to know about Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior is there.
Salty Cracker, i’m confused about what you said about God testing the families in CO. I do believe that God tests his people. But, can you tell me of an example in the new testament where God used an act of murder or violence to test one of his people? Whether or not you choose to see it or not doesn’t change the fact that the way God interacts with his people changed with Jesus. A new set of rules were applied.Also, how do you classify, or know that any of the random people together in a theater to see a movie of a completely non religious movie have any sort of a common relationship with God. God tests his people, not a random group of people who may or may not have a relationship with him. And as far as God not having human emotions, and Katie not bring able to understand them goes, aren’t we created in HIS image? And sure, there are a lot of things about God that are incomprehensible, but there are plenty of examples in scripture where God displays that in scripture. Until you joined it, this was a respectful conversation.
Jesus himself verifies that he did not come to change or challenge Mose and the Old Testament (see my other responses to this thread) so your challenge to find such an example in the heavily edited New Testament (see Councils of Trent and Nicea) is a false feint meant to derail the argument for those who do not read their Bible.
Those people in the theater were no more random than Job’s children and servants (not to mention bystanders probably killed in the attacks but left out of the story) who were killed in Books one and two of Job. We know nothing of their relationships with the Lord as we do not know those of the people in the theater or their next of kin. We can say that God chose them to be the subjects of a demonstration of the faith of those left behind because that is what the Lord sought to show the Devil in Job Book one.
If you know the rest of the story of the Book of Job, in it, Job himself poses questions of that sort, and God knocks him down to earth and reminds him that he did not create the cosmos or make any part of creation. It is presumptuous and prideful (a sin) of us to presume that we can know the mind of God simply because we are his creations. You assume too, that “in his image” means a great deal more than there is textual evidence in the Bible to support.
And as for your last insulting comment meant to be yet another ad hominem logical fallacy, if you actually read the whole thread, you’d see that I was the first commenter and that there would be no debate if not for the Biblical truths that I have presented.
The blog post is titled “Dangerous Theology” and the most dangerous theology that I have seen here are peoples’ first grade Sunday School platitudes about the Bible that demonstrate nothing of the adult critical thinking skills that I would hope that such Christians would have. It seems that people are operating on a very simplistic notion of Christ’s words and actions that demonstrate no knowledge of the actual complexity of the text that all of the commentors want to refer back to.
Know Christ or no Christ.
Dear Salty: I hope we read, “It is finished,” from Jesus on the cross. I can’t think that he left anything undone. I believe that Jesus said as recorded in John, that He would send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of guilt in regard to sin, righteousness and judgment. He didn’t say, I would send Salty or Bob, or whoever to convict the world……
Let us all not think so highly of ourselves or of our revelations.
Kind Regards
Dear Bob, the worst thing that we can do besides disobey our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is to misinterpret His divine word and lead others astray. If we are to truly know Christ, we must know all of his words, not just those that we like to spout in platitudes on Sunday. A half truth is still a lie. I make no revelations that are not supported with textual evidence from the Lord’s own divine word. I try to counsel others to do the same and am unafraid to guide them to the one, true Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior when try to say something about him that his own words and actions don’t support.
I don’t write of guilt or suppose at divine will. I merely state facts and make predictions that are based on the actions and words as they are presented to us in the Lord’s own divine words. I think everyone should read their Bibles a little more closely and not rely on other fallible humans to reveal the truth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ to them.
“the worst thing that we can do… …is to misinterpret His divine word and lead others astray.”
Salty, I’m not trying to say this harshly, but you have an interpretation of scripture just like everyone else. When I read the scripture I find a God who loves me and has sent his son despite my sins. When God looks at me, he see’s Jesus. That is what I interpret from the Bible. From the “facts.” I do not discount the Old Testament based on this belief, but the fact is, we are under a NEW covenant with Christ, not the abrahamic covenant or the mosaic covenant.
People who are highly versed and studied in theology have varying opinions as well. Luckily God’s grace covers us all. I don’t “pick and choose” what verses I believe. I believe the Bible is the word of God, and I HAVE read all of it. Yet look at all the denominations; all interpret the Word differently, though we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. “They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another.” John 13:35
We need to be very careful to love and respect one another despite our differences.
Also, I don’t know you. All I know of you is a few comments. I don’t care for what I’ve read, but that doesn’t give me the right to judge your relationship with God. I don’t know what your spiritual life is like, fact. Likewise, you can give your opinion, but to judge another believer’s walk is not ok.
The words you’ve said make me wonder what kind of hardships you’ve faced yourself. When my life was torn apart, all the answers I grew up with disappeared. The sunday school answers don’t help. When you are in pain, logic does not help make anything better. Love does. I could explain the reasons for everything that happened to me, but it did not help at all. The pain was still unbearable, and people that gave me reasons clearly didn’t understand how it felt. I’m speaking from my own personal experience. I believe wholeheartedly that it is unGodly to tell people they are being punished when they are going through the horrible things this life brings. Sin happens, life happens. But God loves us and feels our suffering with us. He gives us strength instead of tearing us down.
Because of my own experiences, I could very much connect when Katie says, “We look to God for explanations because we can not fathom how something so shocking and awful can happen. That is exactly what we should do. What we shouldn’t do, is speak. Yes. Speak. When we try to put words in God’s mouth, it does damage.”
People in pain don’t need God’s explanations. They need God’s love. Take it from someone who has been there.
“Okay then, it is finished”.
looks like a little sibling rivalry here .Lol what sort of example is this sniping setting for an unbelieving world who may stumble on this blog. If you are righteous in your interpretation why do you feel the need to defend it in a way to belittle one another doesn’t Christ say he will defend the righteous. It truly isn’t a battle of your intellect. I encourage you to turn the other cheek, love your neighbor as your self and only speak whatsoever is true and of good report. You can state your belief with out attacking someone of a different conviction. Remember it is the Holy Spirit that brings about conviction of truth not the intellect of the human speaker.
May the peace of the Lord be with you.For we fight not against flesh and blood but of principalities of the air.
You are absolutely right. It is easy to get defensive when your relationship with Christ is attacked; or, when it’s about a horrific tragedy like the one that just happened in Aurora.
Loving one another, even when we don’t see eye to eye, it’s challenging and probably is why God said “above all else, love one another.”
Thank you for the reminder.
Please read the Book of Luke, Chapter 14 where Jesus reminded the throng that anyone who comes between the people of God and their service towards his will (verses 26 and 27) should be hated, even family.
Please stop simply picking and choosing the bits of scripture that you want to follow and ignoring the rest.
Not for my sake, but for the sake of your own salvation.
Katie, it’s amazing how you keep referring back the Christ of your Children’s Bible that is simplified for simple minds. Surely you are more able to discern the truth of the Bible than those lines that everyone trots out when they want to preach “love, love, love” all of the time. You’re demonstrating a lack of knowledge of the rest of the Bible. Surely, you are missing God’s character entirely. Everything is His creation, even Satan. I’m too tired to get my Bible back out, but Jesus himself tells us that God our Father made everything and that there is nothing that happens which is not his will. If you knew Christ, you’d know that.
Salty, I am going to respectfully ask that you leave this comment thread. I welcome others perspectives, as long as the conversation is conducted kindly. That is not happening here. Please stop. You’ve spoken your peace, and I do not need to dignify your insults with a response.
But when Jesus saw [it], He was indignant and pained and said to them, Allow the children to come to Me–do not
forbid or prevent or hinder them–for
to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive and accept and welcome the kingdom of God like a
little child [does] positively shall not enter it at all. And He took them [the children up one by one] in His arms
and [fervently invoked a] blessing, placing His hands upon them. (Mark 10:14-16 AMP)
Katie, I’m going to respectfully ask that you stop misleading other Christians about the teachings of Christ. You insulted me first with your ad hominem logical fallacies. I merely defended myself and pointed out the childishness of your understandings Jesus.
Again, this is MY blog. You have your own platform to speak from, please go there to do that.
To Liza Yi, I must say: “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” (Psalms 137:9, KJV)
This is what the Lord commands.
Yes, this is your blog, but it is a public space, and you’re actively misleading others about the truth of Christ’s teachings. I cannot abide that. The Devil has taken enough people from the Lord’s Salvation because of laziness on the part of Christians.
My phone broke today. I was out at the park, enjoying the calm, when as I was getting into my car my headphones caught the door handle, flipped my phone into the air and now my screen is cracked.
Was God testing me? Teaching me? Judging me?
What if I had broken my leg instead. Or ended up in a car accident on the way home? What if I walked into my apartment to find a voicemail telling me that my parents had been in a building as it collapsed over them? What if my friends were the ones shot in that theater?
The fact is that some things just happen. We don’t know why. We can’t. But more importantly, it doesn’t matter. We can argue for a lifetime about whether God knew something was going to happen and by that knowledge caused it to happen. Smarter people than us argue that every day. But it bears no significance to anything.
All that matters is that we love. If you believe in the Bible then that means you love God and you love people. If you don’t, then at least love people. That’s humanity. That’s life. I don’t see what benefit it is to a hurting person to justify their pain as an act of God. Whether he was negligent, testing or judging. What good does it do?
None.
The discussion here has grown beyond what I had anticipated or hoped for. I’m closing the post to further comments.